Equality UPDATED

5 Dec

“Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not decieved, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.”
~ 1 Timothy 2:11-15

That’s actually in the Bible. It’s purports to be written by Paul, one of the founders of Christianity (altho it most likely isn’t). Why is gay marriage an issue?

Also this one (actually, this one was written first, and actually by Paul):
“Women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak… “
~ 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

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6 Responses to “Equality UPDATED”

  1. Anonymous December 7, 2004 at 6:40 pm #

    Hey,
    You don’t know me, but your livejournal came up when my friend put in “Farm and Wilderness” as one of her interests (I’ve never been there myself but it sounds amazing.)
    Anyway, thats a really interesting point. If women are continuously belittled and men glorified within modern Christianity (most sects at least), why are they so intent upon the traditional male-female relationship?
    Ugh that last quote almost made me sick. Christianity has so many Pagan roots, its kind of absurd the way they tried to alter the value of gender roles within the bible. *sigh* that religion never ceases to mystify me. I mean, I do love a lot of the general principles, and I have no doubt that Jesus was a spiritually advanced being, I just hate the hypocracy and human distortion that has plauged the evolution of the bible for so long. I much prefer the Eastern belief systems myself, though they are not immune to time and humanity either…
    Anyway, thanks for a bit of mental stimulation.
    ~Li

    • junorhane December 8, 2004 at 7:23 pm #

      hey Li,
      Farm and Wilderness is amazing, you should try and visit some time, or go, for that matter.
      Anyways, those are just the quotes that made it into the Bible. I’m taking a class on Early Christianity, and we’re reading a lot of other stuff too some of which is even more extreme. There are lengthy tractates on the veiling of virgins and on the use of makeup, which is apparently of the devil.

  2. woadiejones December 8, 2004 at 7:03 pm #

    you can take that quote out of context all you want….
    but the relationship between man and women is clearly described in the bible…
    the point of those passages is not to say so much that women should not be leaders, its to say that men SHOULD be.
    so where is the difference you might ask.
    well, God established man to be the head of women AS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH.
    how did Christ lead the church? through love, complete commitment, and service.
    so what women would complain if given all of those things? the bible lays out that it is mans responsibility to do all these things for woman, in addition to leading them in a heathy relationship towards Christ.
    woman have their roles too, which are not just cook and clean like bible haters might think… but the point is, as long as the man is doing their job, the woman SHOULD NOT HAVE TO LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR ANYTHING!!!
    the bible does not condone owning a women no matter what….it lays out the groundwork for how a relationship should be, and that is one with complete love and support for the woman coming from the man. it is one in which the man provides for the woman out of love, not the woman relies on the man out of weakness…
    if you put those passages into context and do some research i think you would find your conclusions to be completely different.

  3. junorhane December 8, 2004 at 7:32 pm #

    If a woman is getting love, complete commitment (altho I imagine “complete” to mean “shared with God”) and service… why shouldn’t she talk in church? It explicitly states that she shouldn’t. Why shouldn’t she teach?
    A few other non-canonical sources that we’re reading in my class (Tertullian’s “on the apparel of women” comes to mind) bring to light that these passages (the one from 1 Corinthians in particular) were the source of debate and many different interpretations in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Perhaps the point of those passages is to say men should be leaders. It was widely believed and accepted however that the practice of veiling women (and keeping them silent in church) stemmed from two things: one was the fallen angels fornication of women as told in Genesis 6:4, and the other was the belief that once baptized into the faith, the Holy Spirit used the body as a temple. To expose the Temple or misuse it would be a sin against the spirit.

  4. Anonymous December 9, 2004 at 2:19 pm #

    Hey,
    I’m sorry I didn’t mean to offend anyone with what I said. I am certainly not a bible hater… I don’t know nearly enough about it to devolop an opinion.
    Anyway, even looking at the opposing point that was made, it still seems to me that in Christianity, males are considered more advanced beings in the eyes of God- even if they are meant to use their leadership well, in a loving and commited way.
    This is the most major part of Christianity that I can not identify with. I prefer the yin and yang theory that every aspect of male and female are equally as crucial to balance and harmony. Perhaps the bible is just saying that males have more of a leadership quality than females (which I do not deny in the slightest)… I just wish there was some mention of important female qualities and the limitations they would place on men (for example, the predominantly female ability of fully accepting and feeling one’s emotions). But then again, I really don’t know that much about the bible so maybe there are such things mentioned in it.
    Junorhane- are you taking classes on any other religions? I ask because theology is something I’d love to major in (along with oriental healing arts or psychology) 2 years from now and I wonder what kind of courses are out there.
    ~Li

    • junorhane December 12, 2004 at 11:18 am #

      I have taken an introductory class to the world’s major religions, a Bible class, and the class I’m in now. There are many many schools where you could go to major in theology and learn much more than I know. Where I go (Hampshire College) there aren’t that many religion courses, but there are certainly enuff in the surrounding colleges (which Hampshire students can take classes in) that I’ve been able to study whatever I wanted. I’m not majoring in theology tho, I’m more about mythology and storytelling and moviemaking.

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